Martial Arts
What should be a Christian's opinion of martial arts? self-defense in general?
Give as example the following hypothetical situation: a lady veterinarian off at a ranch in the boonies in the middle of the night, theoretically called there to deliver a calf but it turns out to be a set-up in which she is assaulted so the bad guys can steal the mind-altering drugs in her truck.
As a Christian, should she.....?
A) Allow herself to be harmed and allow the contents of the truck to be stolen
B) Try to avoid being harmed and try to escape with the truck and its contents, but refuse to oppose the assaulter in any other way (e.g. no physical opposition to the assaulter)
C) Ward the assaulter off with whatever un-trained force she can muster, though without permanently injuring him
D) Ward the assaulter off with skilled techniques learned in a martial arts/self-defense program, still without permanently injuring him
E) Carry a concealed weapon to use in a manner that would harm but not kill
In this situation:
What effect should this person's trust in God have?
How do you apply the injunction to "resist not evil"?
Would it be better for the opponent to be physically opposed, or to allow him to obtain the drugs?
What do y'all think?
Give as example the following hypothetical situation: a lady veterinarian off at a ranch in the boonies in the middle of the night, theoretically called there to deliver a calf but it turns out to be a set-up in which she is assaulted so the bad guys can steal the mind-altering drugs in her truck.
As a Christian, should she.....?
A) Allow herself to be harmed and allow the contents of the truck to be stolen
B) Try to avoid being harmed and try to escape with the truck and its contents, but refuse to oppose the assaulter in any other way (e.g. no physical opposition to the assaulter)
C) Ward the assaulter off with whatever un-trained force she can muster, though without permanently injuring him
D) Ward the assaulter off with skilled techniques learned in a martial arts/self-defense program, still without permanently injuring him
E) Carry a concealed weapon to use in a manner that would harm but not kill
In this situation:
What effect should this person's trust in God have?
How do you apply the injunction to "resist not evil"?
Would it be better for the opponent to be physically opposed, or to allow him to obtain the drugs?
What do y'all think?
posted by Claire at 19:16
24 Comments:
Claire,
I am fascinated and encouraged by your honest approach to this very important subject of self defense. I really do want to address this here but I haven’t the time at the moment, and I have, in the past year, read several excellent articles addressing Christians and self defense that might interest you, so I need to take time to try and locate them… So please stand by and I will post again on this subject when I have my material together. (Hopefully not too long). In my opinion the question you need to resolve in your mind is as to whether or not, self defense is justified for us as Christians. In my opinion, the simple answer is an unqualified yes. I am permitted to carry concealed and often do, especially if I am going into a remote area. I am sure the martial arts have their place; however you need to keep in mind the likely threat level that you may encounter and be prepared to meet that threat with equal or greater force. Stay posted…I will find those articles.
Sounds like a very interesting question. I'd like to take a stab at somewhere between b and c, probably closer to b. What do you do to prevent the use of nicatin/alcahol? Is that more or less morally wrong for people to posess/use then drugs?
While not deeply theological, here is a very well written site that may be of interest to you on this subject. It is not the article that I was referring to.. I am still in search of that.
http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx
Believe it or don't, at the moment I have no quick answer to post beyond wondering:
What did Jesus do?
And in the scenario you offered, how do I show them the love of said Jesus?
What Mark? Not even a quick opinion? ;) Please don't be offended by my saying that THIS particular topic is one on which you and I have a strong difference of opinion and interpretation of all of Christ's teaching as it relates to the subject. As a Christian I respect the Pacifist point of view, but I disagree with it in general.
A couple more questions:
1. If your child was about to inject themselves with heroin, which would be better for them...?
A) Allow them to do so in order to not be resisting evil
B) Use physical force to keep them from harming themselves
2. If a child during vacation Bible school was strangling another child, would you:
A) Allow them to do so in order to not be resisting evil
B) Use physical force to keep them from both harming someone else and becoming a murderer
3. If a man was going to rape a woman, would it be better for him if she...?
A) refused to resist him
B) used effective but non-lethal force to resist him
4. If you were the hypothetical unregenerate children/man above, and you later became a Christian, which would you prefer had been the final result of the above scenarios?
5. Virgil, if you had an alcoholic relation whom you really loved, would you allow them to drink themselves to alcohol toxicity and die, or would you physically oppose their actions?
I think I know generally what Jesus would do in these cases... but the question of whether his actions would involve trained self-defense moves remains.
Another thought...
In one instance Jesus went as far as to instruct his followers to sell their coat in order to buy a sword if they didn’t already own one. We can gather several things from this. One, that owning a sword for means of protecting ones self and ones family was a foregone conclusion in the mind of Christ. Secondly, that, as Christians, there is the necessity of forethought and preparation for such matters.
Claire, those are difficult questions and thus subject to trite/pat/canned answers.
In light of them I again have to ask myself:
What did Jesus do?
How do I show them His love?
(And a new question based on srs' word choice: What's the difference between pacifism and non-resistance? But the other two questions first.)
Allow me to divert momentarily to another recent situation… the mass shooting in the mall at Omaha. Eight innocent bystanders, the wrong place at the wrong time? No they were not at the wrong place. The perpetrator of this horrible crime was in the wrong place. There victims did nothing to deserve to die that day. In my opinion, it was unfortunate that there was apparently not an armed security guard in the vicinity, nor a citizen with a Concealed Carry that was armed. Had I been there and been armed, from a pure moral standpoint, I could not have allowed this rampage to go on. There is certainly time and place for us to show the love of Christ to all men. But that would not have been the time and place. I believe that acting to save the lives of others or possibly my own in that situation would have been the only just decision for me to make. To have had the power to do so and to have chosen not to exercise that means would have been immoral and unjust.
Yes, Mark, trite answers are one of my pet peeves -- and worse. And multiple choice questions such as I have posed are annoying because they imply that there are no other options when in reality there are.
The questions you have posed are very key... it seems that I will be better able to answer them as I learn to know Jesus more and experience more situations in life. Life has this way of providing new angles on a subject.
I need to "search the scriptures" on this topic... It seems like there are a lot of principles outlined in the Bible but not a lot of exact examples of situations where Jesus did or didn't use force. This means that it takes lots of wisdom to discern appropriate behavior in individual circumstances.
While my mind does entertain grey areas with regard to non-lethal, non-debilitating force... I do strongly believe that it would be wrong for me to kill another person, period. In order to protect my physical life, the life of a child, even the life of another non-regenerate person. It is better that I die and go to Heaven than that they die in the evil act and go to Hell. Their life is no less valuable than that of anyone else. I must love them.
I know this belief would appear to allow a "greater evil" (in terms of numbers of humans dying) to be done when a "lesser evil" could have prevented it. But I do believe I am called to love all men. It is possible to love a person and kill them, but this would be an act of insanity.
I need to look into the sword passage, Steve. And I would be interested to read the articles you speak of. It is good to have you weighing in on the discussion.
I appreciate this discussion because I have been irritated in the past by those who would not even try to answer these questions and say that they would just hope that God would tell them what to do at the time. This seems incredibly irresponsible and I think ranks with those who expect God to heal their illnesses without going to a doctor. Having said this, I realize the Bible is, perhaps, not that clear on the subject. We don't have illustrations where Jesus was present when his family was being tortured or his brethren slaughtered. So in these extreme cases, I'm not sure what he would have done. We do have the instance(s) where he became obviously violent, and beyond resistent to being the obvious aggressor with the money changers in the Church. The implication was that there are times when force is necessary to keep the church pure. Arguments that Jesus had the authority to do this but we don't, I think, are lame, in that the rest of the time he was trying to model for us proper "christlike" behavior....The fact of the matter is that if the U.S. had been nonresistant from day one, it would never have existed and you would most likely not have the freedom to openly worship as you do....
Wow, Claire! Your post has sparked quite the discussion! I don't think there are easy answers to such questions. I believe in the principles of nonresistance. However, if I was physically attacked, I would most likely put up as much fight as I could possibly muster, without going lethal. One thing I always find fascinating in this area is that in the Jewish Law, a woman was held guilty of fornication or adultery if she did not resist, cry out and fight her attacker in the case of rape. I think in the scenario you described, I would probably fight, and try to get away as fast as possible, which would most likely entail trying to get away WITH the truck, but without lethal force. So, my choice most closely matches C in your multiple choice list.
How unfortunately timely, the shooting at the Church and Mission House in Colorado. Today some churches are, as this one was, large public venues. Even in our comparatively small church, I sometimes wonder what would happen in a similar situation. I applaud the preparation on the part of this church to, in a very realistic and culture sensitive manner, do all that it could to ensure the safety of its members and guests.
On a separate but related note Claire, for your situation I highly recommend that you look at the non –lethal Tasers that are quite readily available on the civilian market. Several companies make them, all similar in cost and functionality.
Hmmm, you have hit on something there, Steve. I honestly hadn't thought about that option... I like it.
Just one word of caution. I would not use a Taser gun, since they have proven fatal on more than one occasion. They are not generally considered lethal, but recent Taser deaths from RCMP (the police)usage in Canada have resulted in calls for the RCMP to cut back on its use, and to not view it as on the same level as pepper spray or batons. One source says "the electronic stun guns should be reclassified as an "impact weapon," meaning they should only be used by officers when there is the threat of death or grievous bodily harm to officers or the public"
As for Tasers, I have no dog in the fight, as they would say. However I did look at a bunch of statistics. In a overwhelming majority of the cases in which perpetrators have died in conjunction with being “Tased” there were very few if any deaths which occurred from single Taser events. In other words the perpetrators were Tased multiple times by multiple officers. (since a Taser is a single shot device that needs to be recharged before refiring) In a great number of the cases which I read about, there were additional complications or stressors involved such as heart conditions, or drug use which could not be dismissed as contributing factors. It is extremely rare to find a care in which a person has died from a single Taser event. My personal opinion is that the benefit greatly out ways the risk in this case.
My little brother took martial arts when he was little, which was very good at improving his confidence... not sure of any long-lasting spiritual significance, though :)
By the way Claire, you are extremely difficult for a poor vet student to get a hold of – I have been trying for months! We should hang out if you’re comin’ up North for the holidays.
P.S. I am also shocked and amazed that so many people still check your site after the long dry period… I personally have a long-standing road block with the rape situation, having done my honors thesis undergrad on the topic, but Daniel may grace you with his insightful input as we’ve been discussing your question along with some in-context scriptures tonight, but for now I really want to relay a story I heard on the radio before our horrible LA Med final, as I think it is an amazing example of what Jesus DID do in a similar situation:
Pauline Jacobi, described as a quiet person by her friends, reads her Bible everyday. Her strong faith keeps her going in life and may have saved it after she almost became the victim of a parking lot robbery when a entered her car.
"He was bundled up with a heavy jacket and cap," Jacobi said. "And he said 'Give me your money.' I said, 'No, you're not getting my money.' Twice the disheveled man, who Jacobi said appeared to be in his 50s, demanded money. The third time, he said if she didn't comply, he would kill her.
"Then the good Lord took over," Jacobi said. "I said, 'If you kill me, I'm going straight to heaven. If you kill me, you're going to hell.'"
She said the man looked at her as her words spilled out.
"You look like you've had an awful time in this world," said Jacobi to the man. "And as bad as that is, it's nothing compared to hell. Hell is much worse than anything here ..."
"Jesus is sitting in the car with me," she told him, as he glanced in the back seat. "He'll protect me if you kill me. I'll go to heaven."
Jacobi said she was looking intently at his eyes during the talk.
"He had such sad eyes," she said. "The cap over his face made him look unkempt, but his eyes weren't mean-looking."
"I asked him his name," she said. "He said it was Ricky."
"Ricky, you drink, don't you?" asked Jacobi. "He said he was hungry. I said if you didn't spend your money on drink you'd have money for a meal."
"Then I asked him, 'Ricky, would you like to go to heaven?'"
"'Yes, I sure would,'" he said. "'But I'm afraid the Lord won't take me."'
"Yes he will. He will take you if you believe. He'd save you right here and now. All you have to do is believe in Him and accept Him as your savior."
"Ricky said, 'I think I'll go home and pray tonight,'" and Jacobi replied, "You don't have to wait until tonight. You can pray anytime you want to."
After a brief silence, Jacobi told the man she was going to give him the money she had.
"I reached into my purse and opened the clutch bag and pulled out a $10 bill (all the money she had). I said 'Ricky, I'm going to give you money. Don't spend it on liquor. Get something to eat."
Jacobi said Ricky hesitated.
"I want you to have it," she said. "You weren't going to take it from me, but I'll give it to you.
"He started to cry. Then he leaned over and gave me a kiss on the cheek."
The shaken man then opened the door and walked into the night.
The police report notes from video surveillance of the parking lot that the man was in Jacobi's car for almost 12 minutes before he exited. The recording also shows several dozen shoppers walked by the car during the time Jacobi was ministering to the man.
A member of the First Baptist Church, Jacobi said she frequently prays asking for ways to bring friends and family closer to the Lord.
"I do think maybe this was it," she said.
Pauline Jacobi will turn 93 in January.
If you read Mathew 5:21-48 I think you will not find a further conundrum, but when taken in context of both that and the rest of the Bible, a solid answer.
In Mathew 5:38-44 (NASB) Jesus says “You have heard that is was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. You have heard it said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…”
What’s he talking about here? The entire time he is removing preconceived ideas about what love is by showing how much more they could love. Let’s look at what he said a little closer.
Situation A: Man being taken to court. Is being taken to court sinning by either party? Not inherently so. He is demonstrating how to show love.
Situation B: Walking with someone an extra mile. Sin? No. It shows that you care about the person even if it isn’t your first choice. Remember neither party is sinning.
Situation C: Allowing someone to borrow something. Sin? No. But what if they scratch the paint? But! But! But! But what? If allowing someone to borrow something shows them love, let them borrow it (within Wisdom because yes, God is the God of Love and Wisdom, see Psalms).
Are these people sinning? No. So what does it mean: “…do not resist an evil person…” So here resist means to be “set against”. So It could read, “…do not be set against an evil person…” Question: how can you show love to a person you are against. If you are set against someone who has hurt you, can we love the person? I find I can’t.
This entire passage is expanding our perception of when we should try to love. When you encounter someone who is trying to be evil, trying to sin, we should ask ourselves, “how can we show this person love?” Actually, we should ask ourselves this every time we encounter a person, this person just happens to also be visually sinning at the time. In fact, the same things you know and learn from the rest of the Bible applies as well. Don’t steal, and just as strongly, don’t be party to stealing. Don’t rape, and don’t help someone rape. Would you like to be the lookout man next? God’s Wisdom and Justice applies to all situations. Read Proverbs 3:7 “…Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.” Turn away! Don’t participate, don’t help! It’s foolish thinking to blindly let someone hurt you. But…
Love isn’t Blind
Nate Saint willingly died because he knew God could use it to break the chain of revenge. He died for Love. Jesus died on a cross. For Love.
However, I can’t see how allowing yourself be raped shows love. It may take away power, but power is not a viewfinder for Christians to have. That’s for feminists. We speak of Love. I don’t see how allowing someone to have drugs will show love. This entire passage is not about power, but about Love.
Can we show love by controlling someone? By forcing them to “be good”? Take this into account. If you use a taser or martial arts you are trying to control them. If you are a parent you may need to control your child to show them Love. Will controlling a stranger show love? In most cases I would argue that it would not show love. However True Love is not totally permissive. Only God has True Love and God is not totally permissive. He is able to Judge in Love because God is Love.
Should you learn self defense or carry a taser? If you think it Wise and prudent for your safety, yes. However, make sure it’s for a practical reason and not because you don’t trust God. Just don’t try to complicate the issue! Don’t we often pray for safety? Do you wish to be safe? Yes! Try to be safe then! It’s simple wisdom. Do we try to show people love? Hopefully yes, but will allowing someone to hurt you show them love? In 99% of the situations I’ve heard of, no!
So in other words, should Christians always defend or always be permissive? Neither, because it is a wrong question. We should always show love. If you are rewarding lust, stealing, or other evil, are you ever acting in love? Again I would argue no. Should we protect ourselves from evil? Do you want God to protect you from evil? I hope so, so take what God gave you and put it to good use! If you keep it simple, it becomes clearer.
To answer the original question: Get out of harms way if at all possible. Don’t try to restrain them, but resist an attack. If it is a calm operation (“give me the drugs”) maybe you need to show them love by talking to them. If they are being irrational don’t talk, run! (don’t argue with a fool!) If there is a genuine opportunity to show God’s Love, different then permissive or controlling human love, then take it. If not, run!
Wow! There are some VERY good thoughts in that last post. My response is a heartfelt "amen."
That's my boy :)
Every situation is different, but if option (b) worked it would probably be best. Of course Divine intervention would be the only way it would work given the circumstances in the scenario...
This is an intriguing topic with no cookie-cutter answers. It brings to mind discussions that went on at CYBS a few weeks ago.
Daniel Theo's thoughts are excellent. How do we show love to our enemies? It isn't easy, however, I do know that God has promised grace enough for every one of life's circumstances.
JK, I will try to call you tonight. Ooooh, large animal med exam! Is it hard to believe that you will be a senior in a few short months? Ah, the days of being a student! Sigh.
Thanks to you and Daniel for weighing in on this. I still approve of him. :)
It's interesting from the outside to see how "christians" answer "what if" questions... There was only one response that used the word of God (without manipulation), and the rest was humanism.
God's word says not to ask "what if" questions in the first place. (I'll leave that up to you to find in the scriptures, there are plenty of direct and indirect references to it... Be a Berean)
In the second place, the one scripture that was implied to say that Jesus taught us to defend ourselves, and to go and buy swords... If you finish that verse, instead of ending it early to promote "defense" or whatever doctrine you are repeating, it says that this was done ONLY to fulfill the scriptures (that they be numbered with the TRANSGRESSORS) That is what a person with a sword was... a transgressor. In the next verse Jesus rebukes him for using it... "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." And again... "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Jesus plainly tells us that he is not, and we are not part of this world, so don't fight evil, don't resist evil (evil people). There is plenty more there in the WORD if you really want to find it, don't just repeat what you've been taught... Search it out and be able to spiritually use it.
You will never fend off evil with human hands... God says so. Why don't you believe the scriptures?
I need to formulate some sort of cohesive address of the issues raised by this post and its comments.
Hopefully soon.
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